manually stimulating/vibrating pacer to increase heart rate during exercise

yikes

by Tracey_E - 2016-12-20 21:53:33

That doesn't sound like a practical long term solution to me, but if it's working for you then go for it. 

Dontcha wish they came with a remote control?! Would solve a lot of problems for some of us. 

Response to TraceyE

by sesquipod - 2016-12-20 22:03:22

Absolutely i wish i had a remote control.  maybe a mole size dial on my chest :)  

Actually it's quite easily doable.  It already exists in the programmers the techs have, so just a home version that can only control the heart rate.  But I'm sure the FDA, and Doctors would have a big (perceived liability) problem with this.

 Thanks for your comment!

Good vibrations

by IAN MC - 2016-12-21 07:59:21

i think what you are doing is very creative , you should patent it and get rich from frustrated PM-wearing cyclists !

You ask if there are any risks. I haven't a clue as to whether your vibrating device creates a powerful  electro-magnetic field right next to the PM , I would have thought not .    Certainly there are no other potential risks. If the device gets too carried away with its vibrations you will simply hit the maximum RR sensor rate and the PM will then not increase your heart rate any further.

It is sad that none of the current Rate Response systems are as good as a normal functioning sinus node . Maybe the models with dual sensors where an  accelerator is combined with a minute ventilation sensor is the best bet for cycling . That is what I'm hoping to change to at my next PM change-over as I also have a Medtronic Advisa .

Maybe I should try a vibrator as an interim measure. ( could be your first order ! )

Cheers

Ian

Response to IAN MC

by sesquipod - 2016-12-21 10:46:54

Hi Ian - thanks for your comments some replies and further info below:

"patent it and get rich"  A funny story on this - I went shopping at an Adult Store to find a small form factor vibrator to try, and I explained to the owner what i was looking for (wireless, small,...) So this fellow was very helpful and interested in the idea - indicating if it worked, he suggested we could form a business based on the concept.  He pointed me in the right direction, and I was amazed at the plethora of product.  It was educational to say the least.  While getting dizzy shopping trying to figure the best one - the shop keep guy came over with more helpful info - he told me that the products usually only run for 5 minutes as that's all that is necessary - and running them for 30 - 60 minutes might burn out the motor :)  I explained that was probably not an issue as I could turn the vibrator off for a while as the heartrate takes a while to go down based on pacer operation.

Anyway - here is the vibrating device i got - paid $75, and then realized I could get it for much less on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Sensuelle-Rechargeable-Function-Bullet-Purple/dp/B00EKH8O8E

I literally duct tape it to my chest.  shaving chest hair in area helps with tape removal.  It's quite small and I don't think there is any significant electromagnetic field.  When I use the vibration pattern #4 i hit my max heartrate (145) in 20-40 seconds.  I always wear a heart monitor to see what's going on.  

There is a flashing light on the bottom side of the vibrator - easily visible through a shirt.  So you may attract looks in public as your chest is flashing :D  

On making a business out of it - I would guess (I live in the US) the FDA or some other regulatory organization would be problematic - classify it as a medical device and create a lot of overhead for a business.  Perhaps I should contact Medtronic and try to parter w/them.

on your 'sad' comment - Yes, I was very unhapily surprised after getting the Advisa Pacer - that it didn't work well for cycling and other kinds of aerobic exercising.  I would have paid a lot more attention to this before choosing a pacer if I would have known the issue.  I don't know anyone with the 2nd breathing sensor.  Good luck if you get that one.

If you go the vibrator route - please let me know how it goes and share lessons learned :) 

personally

by Cabg Patch - 2016-12-21 12:07:03

I prefer a partner

Dual Sensor

by iany - 2016-12-21 20:44:30

All the current Boston Scientific PMs (I have one) have dual sensors -accelerometer and minute ventilation ("breathing") so this probably would have been a better model to request

Correction on which vibrating device I have

by sesquipod - 2016-12-21 21:10:12

HI all.  I made a mistake - the link below is the vibrator i have - this one has a remote control.  the one I previously listed doesn't have the remote.

https://www.amazon.com/Sensuelle-Rechargeable-Wireless-Control-Function/dp/B00EKH5Z4U/ref=sr_1_2_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1482368899&sr=1-2&keywords=sensuelle+remote+control+vibrator

question on the dual sensor - by Iany

by sesquipod - 2016-12-21 21:16:25

Hi Iany - it would be good to get a review on the dual sensing Boston Scientific Pacer for use in cycling.  Does it increases the heart rate appropriately for aerobically demanding cycling scnearios??  

Thanks!

Can you help me sesquipod ?

by IAN MC - 2016-12-22 05:32:48

So I was looking at your recommended websites . There is a very impressive selection of vibrators.. all colours and sizes and then I got quite carrried away by the very satisfied customer reviews. So carried away in fact that I was unaware of my wife standing behind me.

" Why are you looking at that ? "  she demanded to know .

So where do I go from here sesquipod  ?? ( or is it sexyporn ? ) ..  I mumbled something about pacemakers and rate response sensors and all I got was one of her  "you-are-a-weirdo" stares.

On a serious note,  ( once I repair my broken marriage, )   like you I would love to hear the experiences of any runners/cyclists who have dual sensor pacemakers.

Thanks

Ian

Sesquipod imagination??

by sesquipod - 2016-12-22 23:14:35

Hi Ian - I swear that sometime yesterday I saw a reply from lany telling that she (or possibly he) had good heart rate increase during exercising with both stationary bike, elliptical and general cycling with the dual sensor Boston Scientific pacer.  

So after I read your note, of course I couldn't find it in this thread, or anywhere else.  Maybe it somehow was retracted ... dunno.

Per your web browsing issues with the Mrs. There are many ways to play that one, with possible results spanning the entire continuum between Catastrophic to Sublime.  I would be aftraid to venture any strategy there :)  

FYI - 'Sesquipod' is not anything salacious or sexual in nature (it's not a real word either) - rather it's from the word Sesquipedalian - meaning uses big words.  It's the name of my fantasy football team.  The rest of the teams in my league (we've been at it for 30 years) are more brute force/neanderthalic in nature - so it's brains vs. brawn!

Dual Sensor

by iany - 2016-12-25 19:37:46

Sesquipod -Have only had my dual sensor Boston PM for a couple of months so still early days in terms of fine tuning the rate response settings. Accelerometer was only turned on after my last appointment last week (only the Minute Ventillator sensor had been on). They had me do a 20  minute run and I was up to my max setting (150 BPM) wihin a few minutes and stayed there for the duration, so that works well. However, I'm a competitive Masters swimmer, age 64. so hoping to get a bit of a HR boost while training and competing. Not quite as responsive in the pool but better now with both sensors. Don't cycle so not certain how that will work in  the demanding scenarios you require but expect it would be better than a single sensor Medtronic PM . 

Merry Xmas  Ian Y

Boston Scientific

by todd_654 - 2017-01-01 18:28:52

I just got my PM two weeks ago. I'm a cyclist and the surgeon said that the Boston Scientific unit (Accolade model) used respiration rate instead of motion (accelerometer). He said the accelerometer types don't always work well for cyclists since there is less upper body movement, so I opted for the Boston Scientific.

I'm still learning and it seems that everybody has different issues. My issue was AV heart block. So my PM only takes over at low heart rates (<50). Otherwise, it just "monitors" the rate at higher levels. My heart has no problem going up and it doesn't flutter or anything. So I am not even sure if the rate response feature is turned on.

And I haven't been on a bike yet. I haven't really pushed my heart rate yet.

PM's and Vibrators

by RDD - 2017-01-19 11:37:35

Pardon the undoubtedly lengthy response that will follow, but such is my propensity with this complex subject. I had my original PM (Medtronic ADDR01) taken out and replaced with a Biotronik Etrinsa 8 HF-T after trying with less than adequate success to return to my previous, prePM, athletic life.  For those of you less familiar with PM rate sensors, Medtronik decided some time ago to limit their devices to an accelerometer only, removing a prior respiratory-rate sensor. So, as many of you have discovered, the accelerometer responds only to motion (vibration) and is not really physiologically sensitive. Other brands have stayed with a dual-sensor method, either a respiratory-rate sensor or some other way of estimating true physiologic need. The Biotronik model that I selected uses a system called Closed Loop Sensing (CLS) which apparently senses impedence (through the pacing wires) of the cardiac muscle and, using  some sophisticated algorhythm, adjusts your HR appropriately....but also relys on an accelerometer at times.  Sounds complicated, Heh? More on this in a  minute.

Anyway, with the Medtronik, I discovered that yes, indeed, I could "fool" the accelerometer by"tapping" rapidly on the PM  and my HR would increase.  This led to to using a small (2.5 inch) vibrator taped to over my PM, and controlled remotely with a hand-held controller with about 12 different vibration patterns, which varied in efficacy.(SESQUIPOD has discovered this as well at his local adult sex store). Both of these methods were sort of OK for steep hiking but couldn't be used well for mountain-biking,where both-hand control is essential. So, after considerable research, I exchanged (with the small but real risk of catastrophic post-op infection) it for my current Biotronik, hoping for a more useful approach to rate-setting. That was varyingly successful, never consistently enough to allow me satisfactory athletic endeavors. That may have been due to the fact that I was intermittently in and out of AF.  On the Biotronik unit, when you enter AF the accelerometer cuts out and only the CLS is used to set your HR. Along the way,I had discovered that neither "tapping" on the PM or the small vibrator would work with the Biotronik as it  had,  more or less, with the Medtronic.  When I went into continuous AF, the accelerometer ceased to  be of any utility at all. So, my PM tech turned it off completely. This, alone, didn't do the job, so they reprogrammed the software differently a few weeks ago. It's better now, but inconsistent in how it responds to different kinds of exercise.  Don't know  about biking yet as I live in the Idaho Mountains and have several  feet of snow on the ground.....but alpine skiing is iffy. I can't return to my vibrator method, both because the accelerometer has been turned off and because it was never very responsive to any external controls anyway. 

So,what have I learned from all this that might be of value to any others out there?

     -  if you are an athlete who wants to continue doing any sports that don't cause             significant motion of the PM (and running may be the only one to consistently do so), a model that uses some additional method  of rate setting in addition to an accelerometer is necessary. (I have no experience with the respiratory-rate sensors).

     -  The success of that will greatly depend on the type rate-setting device chosen and your individual circumstances and arrythymia.

     -  A remote-controlled tiny vibrator and reliance on an accelerometer only may  be as good a choice as any other, but  comes with difficult positioning and duct-tape issues (commercial possibilities ??).

     - This site is the BEST (perhaps the only) place to get this kind of info on PM related topics (Thanks Golden_Snitch)......your Cardiac EP and your PM tech are not consistently reliable.

     -  Or,  like me, you may get fed up with all the complexity and decide that 74 years of strenuous sports is enough and retire to the rocking chair and your fantasy life.

This is amazing!

by hugooc - 2017-07-28 22:07:47

This is so clever! The idea of vibrating the pacer to increase heart rate during exercise is absolutely brilliant. I am will be doing a talk in two weeks where I will touch on the "wisdom of patients". I am hoping to share examples of patients who "hacked" the system to find unusual solutions to healthcare problems. Your example is increadible!

Would you be able to share with me a photo of the vibrator over the pacer? Please let me know.

Thanks,
Hugo