Covid Vaccines

covid19 vaccine and boosters

by new to pace.... - 2023-01-26 11:27:34

I have had all the orginal and the boosters.  I do not normally get any preventive shots.  But this one scared me.  Did not want to be on a ventilator.  I have been  fortunate  so far, that i have not had this dreadful disease. After the shots some times had a sore arm.  Forunately no major reactions.

new to pace

I will continue to take up my Covid vaccines

by Gemita - 2023-01-26 13:32:13

Hi Penguin,

I think we have all got Covid fatigue!  I have attached a BBC link so that our friends abroad can read what has happened, if they wish.

I developed Covid before I received my first Covid vaccine and my illness lasted several months.  I was very poorly, with a chest infection, cough, very high temperature and absolutely no desire to go on living.  I am still suffering some long Covid symptoms (mainly brain fog and chills).   

My original illness caused increased arrhythmias, the likes of which I had never experienced before as well as drenching night sweats, chills, severe fatigue.  Even after three courses of antibiotics for my chest infection, I still had lingering symptoms.

By the time the vaccines started rolling out I wasn’t sure whether I would really need to take them up, since I felt at that time I would have sufficient immunity against Covid to last a life time.  I have now had 4 courses of vaccine treatments and each time, unfortunately, I had quite a severe reaction (to both Pfizer and to the Moderna bivalent vaccine).  

My symptoms following the vaccines included high temperature, lymph node pain and swelling, night sweats and chills.  I also noticed an increase in my arrhythmias at the time of vaccination, but arrhythmia episodes were mild compared to those I experienced during my Covid illness in April 2020.

With the first two vaccines I was confined to bed for several days, so not insignificant symptoms Penguin. I reported all my symptoms following the vaccine to my doctors and also online to the UK Yellow Card scheme set up by the medicines and vaccines regulator. 

On balance, despite my rather severe reaction to the vaccines, I will continue to take these up whenever they are offered.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64237949

Sore arm

by Penguin - 2023-01-26 13:48:07

Yes, New to pace that's about all I've had - a sore arm.  I get preventative jabs for other diseases but have never got the illnesses that these vaccines prevented. 

Like you, I avoided Covid all through the pandemic, then picked it up afterwards when my guard was down.    It wasn't what I expected and It lasted a long time - 4-6 weeks until I felt back to normal. That was the main shock. I thought I'd just shrug it off in a week or so.

Gemita, sorry that you suffered so badly with the disease and the vaccine. Jabs are on offer again soon over here for 'some groups'.  You must be concerned about another round of reactions! 

I'll probably have the next booster too. 

Covid Vaccine/Covid itself

by Nina38 - 2023-01-26 13:57:48

This is an interesting topic on various levels.

I appreciate everyone's insight and experience with the vaccines and Covid... as a heart patient my outlook on all this was always different than those around me because I knew I had to and still have to take care of myself. 

On another note, I did get the 2 Moderna vaccines  but no boosters. 5 months after getting my last moderna vaccine, I got Mr. C. And I will say this it was not pleasant. Fatigue was awful. Fever for 24 hours that caused me to worry. 
I helped my body fight back of course but I felt fatigue while cleaning for a few months after that.. maybe 3/4 months.

Fast forward, I am well now. 1 year later... will I get the booster? Unsure. I didn't like the reaction I got with Moderna. Fatigue that lasted for a few weeks, back pain, muscle aches... :( 

Yes not looking forward to any booster

by Gemita - 2023-01-26 14:11:39

Penguin, yes I wish I didn’t have to go through it again.  I think my immune system just recognises the threat and goes into overdrive or something like this.  Hubby has never had Covid (at least not to his knowledge) or a bad reaction to the five vaccines he has received.  I just cannot understand it, but I am glad he has stayed well.  He needs all the help he can get with multiple health issues.  

lingering effects

by new to pace.... - 2023-01-26 14:37:58

I have heard from friends who had Covid19 even with the original and the   boosters. Have the lingering fatigue, no taste.

new to pace

Nina

by Penguin - 2023-01-26 17:39:59

Thank you for your reply Nina. Yes I agree that the topic is interesting (and concerning) on many levels. 

I follow a cardiologist - Dr Asseem Malhotra - who has strong views on the vaccine booster programme and statins.  He is an advocate for transparent data from the pharmaceutical industry.

 Dr Malhotra has spoken out on twitter and on TV regarding the booster vaccine programme. Along with the discredited MP, Dr Malhotra has also been criticised for speaking out and for hijacking a television interview so that he could communicate his concerns. He was threatened with being reported to the General Medical Council for the TV interview and the GMC have the power to end a doctor's career.  I found that really concerning.

Dr Malhotra's point of view is expressed here : https://www.europeanscientist.com/en/features/being-pro-covid-19-vaccines-and-pro-transparency-are-not-mutually-exclusive-ending-all-mandates-globally-and-accessing-the-raw-data-is-now-essential-to-restore-trust/

I find it odd that this controversy has occurred in a country which values free speech and I think we need to know more. 

Like you Gemita, I will continue to have the vaccines offered to me, but I'm beginning to worry a bit. 

New to Pace - I haven't had the lingering effects of Covid  - fatigue and taste issues - thank goodness!  I've fortunately been absolutely fine and this, at least, restores a bit of faith. 

Am mostly concerned about getting Covid again although do have some vaccine reservations

by Gemita - 2023-01-26 22:25:10

Penguin, I’m sorry I cannot offer an opinion on the controversy surrounding Andrew Bridgen and Asseem Malhotra but I am all for transparency and honesty and I hope we receive it.   I feel though we have much still to learn about the effects of the vaccines and more importantly about Covid, particularly long Covid.  I suppose I fear another episode of Covid more than the side effects from the vaccines especially since I had quite severe illness during spring/summer 2020 before vaccination.  

Having said this, I do question whether my immune system really needs “regular” boosters because of the way it seems to “overreact” whenever I receive a Covid vaccine (the swollen, painful lymph nodes as an example).  I certainly get symptoms in excess of those expected and lasting far longer too.  I do therefore question whether the vaccine is overkill, at least for me personally? 

"Vaccine"?

by AgentX86 - 2023-01-26 23:54:05

I talked about this some time back.  We've been lied to all along so I can't trust anything the government says.  I took the original vaccine in '21 but haven't had any of the boosters, and won't be. Interesting that India didn't allow Pfizer because they didn't come across with any information and hadn't done the necessary testing for eficacy or safety.  Pfizer also wanted full immunity from civil liability (as they got in the US).

The "vaccine" doesn't act as a "vaccine", rather more like a prophylactic treatment.  It doesn't do what it promised at all.

Sorry, but no thanks.

Edit: I had Covid about nine months ago.  I had an insignificant fever (~98.7, normally 77ish) for less than 72hrs. and mild cold-like symptoms.  I had a cough for a couple of weeks.  My wife had it a little worse but still a very mild fever (~100) but had the cough for six weeks.  She always has trouble with respiratory infections like that.

Providing Comment

by Penguin - 2023-01-27 06:02:16

Thank you for your comments Gemita and AgentX. 

I didn't comment myself Gemita and so I completely understand your stance. I also share your expectations and hope that this will flush out any issues that should be in the public domain. 

AgentX I also understand your stance. A rush to vaccinate and mass fear about a dangerous disease was never going to go completely smoothly. I understand your choices, even if I chose differently.  Your wife's experiences with Covid were similar to mine. 

I am very grateful for the lives that were saved and the amazing work done to produce a vaccine so quickly, and it's important to remember that.  However, those who suffered consequences must not be forgotten either.   

vaccines

by Tracey_E - 2023-01-27 10:04:08

It's possible there are some negatives from the vaccine. Having a heart condition to start with, I feel strongly that I'm better off with the unknown of the vaccine than the risk of covid, which is well known for causing heart problems among so many other potential long term effects. I had a very mild case of covid early on (before vaccine) and was left with asthma. Forever. So, heart condition + asthma = gimme all the boosters. YMMV

A Divisive Subject

by SeenBetterDays - 2023-01-27 11:01:06

Hi Penguin

Personally, I have taken the decision not to take up the vaccine, although, I have to say I am very much in the minority amongst the people I know.

My reservations are

a) the vaccines were developed very rapidly and without the possibility of long term trials to ensure safety and identify any potential long term adverse effects

b) as soon as pharmaceutical companies who are profit driven and political agendas come into play, objectivity of information becomes questionable

c) I remain to be convinced of the vaccines effectiveness and believe that, in some individuals, they may even have the capacity to have a detrimental impact on health

I respect everyone's right to choose based on their own risk/benefit analysis and individual circumstances.  However, this is made increasingly difficult when there is a lack of transparency in the provision of information and those who express any kind of negative views towards the vaccine are promptly silenced.  In my view, this simply erodes trust and confidence and takes away the opportunity for a balanced debate on a very important issue.

another thought

by Tracey_E - 2023-01-27 11:51:59

My daughter and I did a 3 week trip last fall that included a 10 day cruise,. Before we left, I was able to get the booster with omicron. My daughter had the first 3 but was not able to get an appointment in time for the 4th. We were overly cautious and masked on the flights and when in crowds indoors. We were together 24/7, regularly shared food. She came home with covid, I did not. There's no proof the booster is why I didn't catch it, but the evidence is pretty strong. 

She still has respiratory issues 3 months later.

The heart and Covid mRNA vaccination

by Selwyn - 2023-01-27 12:48:21

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34921468/

243 cases out of how many millions?

Missing Research Data

by Penguin - 2023-01-27 14:42:48

Tracey - I'm so sorry to hear about the asthma and respiratory issues that you and yr daughter still have. Not sure about the cruise theory.  I was cooped up at home last year with someone with Covid and didn't get it.  I praised the booster vaccine for it's effectiveness. 1 year later and three boosters down the road and this time a visitor (brief visit but active symptoms of what I thought was a bad cold) and my entire booster vaccinated family got it!  I imagine the variant that's circulating is the important thing to consider. 

Seen Better Days - I respect your considered, reflective attitude to this.  You make some very good points which I think may well have been shouted down here in the UK amidst all the 'anti-vaxxer' shaming that went on. It was intimidating and impaired too many peoples' right to informed choice and an unpressured decision. I share your other concerns too, but am sitting on the fence right now to see if any data appears. 

Selwyn - The cardiac complication particularly of the booster vaccine, is the part I'm interested in, so thank you for the link provided. Yes, 243 is a tiny amount considering the number of booster vaccines given out, and at first glance those numbers are convincing. However the researchers mention as one of the limitations of their study that,

'only reviewing case reports and case series studies is one potential limitation of our study'. 

That may be an important point don't you think? They also recommend further large scale observational studies.  

The wider issue here is how well we were all able to provide informed consent if data relative to risk was missing . I had papers provided by the manufacturer for each booster / vaccine. They were pretty lengthy documents and undoubtedly covered the manufacturer for liability, but I didn't have much time to consider them*. I now have doubts about how the stated risks compared to the research data. 

Note: edited. 

Angry Sparrow - Thank you for your post. Interesting re: the shingles vaccine and other ones. I've never experienced a problem with a vaccine, but the only comparable one to Covid is for flu.  I note your other comments too - I don't remember the British flu vaccine scandal you refer to, but clearly you do. Interesting points!   

Covid and Sick Sinus Syndrome

by Mad Hatter - 2023-01-27 16:51:05

I had Covid in November of 2021, not enjoyable, but not any worse than the flu.  I was not and still am not vaccinated.  I started out with a "wait and see" approach, but as time went by I became more skeptical, as others have said, that these shots STILL under Emergency Use Authorization were as safe or effective as advertised, or that they were properly called vaccines. 

However, I can't help wondering if my SSS discovered in July 2022 is related to Covid.  This article seems to suggest a link:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3?utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100090071&CJEVENT=f4792cb59e7f11ed801702690a82b821

Heart arrhymias are also mentioned related to the vaccine:  https://www.healthline.com/health/heart-arrhythmia-after-covid-vaccine#takeaway

I'm not really second-guessing my decision as much as wanting to see much more transparency in the risk-benefit discussion of the vaccines (as has been expressed by others).  I don't buy the conclusion of the second article: "But getting COVID-19 is much more likely to trigger heart inflammation than the vaccine," nor do I buy the common disclaimer many offer after getting Covid:  "It would been so much worse if I wasn't vaccinated."  There is currently no way to prove these statements.  The past two years and my experiences with my doctors since the pm have decreased my trust in the medical and pharmaceutical industries, so I'm really not sure what to believe anymore.  

Thankful for a thoughtful and respectful discussion here.

SeenBetterDays

by AgentX86 - 2023-01-27 18:18:15

I agree 100%

Add to your list

D) When "untruths" are pushed by govenment and data hidden suspicions are raised

D1) When even discussing the issues isn't allowed sispicions are confirmed.

e) When people are forced to do something by government, a significant number will just refuse.  Civil disobediance runs deep.

e1) When people are being forced to do something without complete knowledge, they're going to revolt

e2) When governmet takes powers they don't legally posess, the people are not going to take it well.

e3) When people's lives are ruined by illegal government action, they're not going to take it well.

No, this whole thing was bungled from day one.  Remember, when it was ten days?

I'll leave you with this:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywlpArNWKxM>

Respectful discussion

by Penguin - 2023-01-28 06:32:09

Hi Mad Hatter, 

Thank you for your thoughtful post. It's really interesting to hear the different views and experiences that people have had and clearly you have thought through the risk vs benefit issue (so far as you have been able to) and made your choice. I respect that. 

I'm sorry to hear about the SSS.  Have you discussed it with your doctors? It would be interesting to hear their opinion and any other factors. I'm certainly not dismissing your suspicions but am interested to hear how your suspicions were / will be received. 

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments re: risk vs benefit discussions. In the UK these conversations should be held with patients prior to treatment - certainly major treatments like operations for example - and this has become a requirement.  With these Covid boosters you could say that we all knew that there 'might' be additional risks. There was certainly a lot of info online, although it became difficult to separate propoganda from scaremongering from fact at times. 

From the manufacturer's point of view, the risk profiling had certainly been thoroughly thought through and I understand that disclaimers were in place. However did we, as patients, have the best information re: risks that was available?

I don't know the answer to that and that's the point of this thread. 

AgentX

by Penguin - 2023-01-28 07:10:15

Thank you for your thoughts.  

It's certainly true that people don't like to be pushed into doing something and that some will revolt whilst others will comply.  I think that in the UK we were 'encouraged' via the narrative of avoiding mass infection and deaths. The effect of not being vaccinated on vulnerable people was a persuasive factor.

A bit of forgiveness and leniency is reasonable given that no government handled this unforeseen event 'perfectly'.   It was a tough call.  It is reasonable to expect that governments should have tried their best to save as many lives as possible and should have acted responsibly and in the interests of the general public in doing so. 

No doubt there will be an autopsy of it all ! 

Vaccine holdouts

by Lurker (Doc DX) - 2023-01-29 16:02:32

I have had all shots and boosters. 
People wont bare their arm because they don't know what's in a vaccine.But they trust implicitly the thing that was implanted in their chest that they know absolutely nothing about. 
 

Trust

by Penguin - 2023-01-30 06:16:46

Lurker, 

There will be people on here who doubt both vaccines and implanted devices and people who trust both. As you point out, there will also be people who trust one but not the other.  To my mind there are lots of personal factors influencing both decisions. Can you directly compare the two decisions?  I'm not sure that you can. 

Implicit trust in an implanted device is probably worthy of a separate thread. If this is something you feel strongly about perhaps you'd like to create one? 

Trust

by Mad Hatter - 2023-01-30 15:56:02

Well in my case I didn't trust and still don't trust implicitly the thing in my chest.  I was quite skeptical about that too and the EP was so nonchalant about it that he did nothing to allay my fears.  What convinced me to go through with it was the initial cardiologist calling me back to say the pauses were still happening, my personal doctor confirming that I needed it, and my wife waking me up at night to make sure I was OK. 

To Lurker's point, I didn't know anything about the pm-not even the brand/model until the manufacturer's rep showed up a few minutes before the surgery.  My surgery was extremely painful while I was on the table, something for which I was utterly unprepared.  Afterwards, I knew nothing about the settings on my device or what the tech was doing on her computer at the device check. The manufacturer's customer service line was not helpful either.  It took me 10 weeks instead of 4 to get a follow up appt with the EP to address the light-headedness I was having and he was pretty nonchalant about that too.  I've since switched EPs and had a better initial experience with the new one, but this is what I mean when I say my trust in the medical and pharmaceutical (really medical-device) industry has decreased.  

The whole inform and consent process is a sham in my opinion, the equivalent of the license agreements we breeze through with Apple and Google giving them free rein with all our personal information.  We probably couldn't understand it if we actually read through the whole thing.  It's all just legal CYA for the corporations and does very little to actually inform the consumer. 

Yes, at some point we have to just trust the doctors, but I've learned so much more from this website than I have from the doctors.  Without this site I wouldn't even know what questions to ask or how to respond to questions from the doctor.  Something is wrong when you have to google things that your doctor should be telling you.

Sorry to vent, but I do see a parallel between the two decisions:  trust, but don't verify or ask too many questions.  We may never know the answers but at least we can ask the questions on this site.  

Parallels

by Penguin - 2023-01-30 16:50:16

Hi Mad Hatter - I do understand what you're saying and can see that 'trust' is the link between your own experiences.  

It's absolutely your right to post about feelings you want to express on here. 

My point, which I probably didn't make very well, was that pacing decisions (without informed consent and without the behaviour you - and I - expect) could fill another thread.  I was trying to keep the focus on the booster vaccines. 

I'll send you a PM to apologise more coherently.

Penguin

by Mad Hatter - 2023-01-30 18:30:13

No need to apologise--I agree there are a lot of personal factors influencing both decisions and that you can't really directly compare the two decisions.  It probably is worthy of its own thread.  You've been respectful to all the different viewpoints here.  Thank you. 

Best Wishes

by Penguin - 2023-01-30 18:37:08

Thank you too Mad Hatter.

Best Wishes

Supplements that help

by pogerm1 - 2023-02-01 01:27:01

I finally got covid the end of July of last year, I wouldn't have known I had it if I didn't take the test which was postive.  I didn't have a fever or a headache, sore throat, the only sympton I had was I felt quite tried, and my nose just kept dripping(watering) and I did sound a little hoarse.  This lasted about 5 days and then I was ok.  I did lose a sense of taste/smell for about a month.. I credit this light case from taking some supplements, like vit. D, vit C also 1 tab. a day of Ivermectin.  My Holistic doc. told me to take 50,000 units of Vit D for 5 days only.  I believe this regime is what helped me.  Oh, I forgot to say, no I didn't get the shot.

Vitamin D

by Penguin - 2023-02-01 07:36:13

Hi pogerm1,

 I hear what you're saying about holistic prevention using vitamins. 

I seem to remember that vitamin D was in the headlines and that it was a vitamin suggested by several experts. From what you're saying, it was very helpful to you and that's well worth knowing so thank you. If further boosters are withdrawn I will certainly think about this post and try Vitamin D. 

Best Wishes